Thats the idea. Each barge has drawbacks, each barge does a different job well.

The problem is that the ret and mack have been too good. There isn't a reason to use a cov/hulk because the ret/mack had a bigger hold, not too shabby yield and a better tank. There also isn't a real reason to use a skiff over a mack in high sec either because the mack can fit a good enough tank to see off most threats.

We said two years ago that the mack and ret were too good, we shouldn't make the same mistake again.

Remember this is a game of supposed decisions and trade-offs.

I'd have no issue with the procurer/skiff actually being able to defend itself for real, so long as it lost some of its insane tank in exchange. This would promote actual interaction and reward attentiveness rather than current reliance on an unbreakable tank before omnipotent CONCORD arrives.

The best tool for survivability in this game is awareness. You appear to want something that leaves you functionally immune to the choices of other players while maintaining no awareness, which, is part of the reason miners draw such negative attention to themselves in the first place.

It doesnt matter how easy a ship is to find. I am simply pointing out the base stats which show that reducing the macks base tank to the same as a hulks is not a terrible thing.




The mack would do just fine with the hulks base tank, the point is to not have the mack overshadow the other mining ships which is what happens right now with its tank vs the hulk. The hulk simply does not have enough going for it to be used when you can get good yield and a good tank out of the mack. The mack even pushes into the hulks main area which is fleet work.

Alright, BLOPS. I fly buzzards, and they're my preferred probe/scout when I'm a fleet scout or go looking for hacking-type sites. Do I absolutely have to have someone else to perform either of those functions? No. Do I have to have someone else in order to open a covert cyno? No (though again, opening a cyno nobody's going to use would be pretty lame). Let's take a couple steps up and consider the widow. What's its primary purpose? Blowing other people to smithereens. Does it require someone else's assistance to do so? No. Sure, you could make the argument that it's gimped up without being able to BLOPS-bridge, but having to slowboat through gates does not in any way affect its fighting ability, only the odds of it successfully sneaking up on someone.

So again, tell me why the hulk should be forced to rely on outside assistance to keep its yield up. It has no tank, but that's not its job. It has no cargo, but that's not its job. Its job is to be the best at turning asteroids into ore, except having to either rely on outside assistance in ways other ships do not, or flying back and forth to a can/yurt/pos/station/whatever to reload, knocks it off that throne. A skiff is not reliant on others to protect it (at least in high sec), and you can AFK in a mac for hours, but a hulk requires babysitting. Two cycles of space, three beams to juggle, and almost no spare crystal capacity. As if mining wasn't painful enough already, why would someone willingly subject themselves to the headache when they can give up just a little bit of yield (208m3/min), have a very chill/zen/hypnotizing time instead, then make up that difference in the time spent shuttling back and forth to the crystal shop?

Go back up through my previous posts, and you'll see that I'm not advocating for a solo hulk, but rather a more specialized one. I'm completely in agreement with making them rely upon others for getting the results of their mining out of the belts, because moving stuff (ore) from point A to point B is another ship's job (hauler, orca, freighter). My problem is that other ships (except the Noctis, but that's a special snowflake) can take everything they need to perform their core function with them, and stay out in the field doing their thing for extended periods of time. Because of the gimped up cargo bay, cov/hulk pilots can't. They'll either burn through the crystals they have and go back to change (which takes them out of the field, letting the mack catch up), or they'll just sit where they are and accept reduced yield by having mismatched crystals (which negates the whole point of calling them yield kings).

The Mack would be matched for yield by the skiff, and it's tank dropped to be equal to the hulks?

Here's the thing about crystals and the Hulk, though. It's a pretty ham fisted mechanic in terms of encouraging group mining. It's basically just an added annoyance factor, and mining is already more than annoying as things stand. Crystals are a bit too costly and long lasting to be treated like communal property, and they get all muddled together when a hauler mixes multiple players' crystals in a cargo hold. You may start an op with an undamaged crystal but finish just an hour or so later with somebody else's 98% damaged one.

But most fundamental is the imbalance between high sec and low/null/WH mining. This mechanic has little impact on high sec. There are only four ore types in any high sec belt. Since the hulk can carry four crystal sets, there is no need for fleet crystal support there. The mechanic affects only some miners but not others.

Make the Hulk and Covetor reliant on support, by all means. But choose a smarter mechanic to make it happen, and not one that adds meaningless frustration. There simply has to be a better way.

One idea would be to gimp yield, but make the Hulk and Covetor more responsive to fleet boosts than the other mining ships. When working solo, they would get very low yields. When provided with mediocre mining boosts, they would do a bit better than the Mackinaw/Retreiver. When given the best possible boosts, however, they would have a huge advantage.

That's far more likely to promote fleet usage than endless frustrations with crystals.

I was verifying the points of the modified change being suggested.

I think the Mack tank should be untouched.

Interesting. But is a ship killed more often because it's under-powered (aka: Dies a lot) or over-powered (aka: flown a lot)? You can ask the same question of any ship kill statistics.

End of the day, if a retriever is the target, I feel like it's probably because there's no hulk present.

That's the conclusion they drew from the data, and probably the only conclusion needed in Nullsec or WHs, but I don't feel it's telling the whole story in HS.

it's definitely part of it though.

Anyway, I don't want to belabor the topic. Like I said, it's not really that important to me. Personally I'd like to see mining ships a bit tougher as it just makes them more entertaining to kill. Blapping a barge in 2 seconds just feels anti-climactic and silly.

But what is the effort required to run that N-1 hulks compared to the retrievers? What is the yield/time efficiency lost for hauling that load? If you have a dedicated hauler on top of that then yes the hulks would be better than the retrievers. If you have to trade the extra retriever pilot into a dedicated hauler for the hulks, how much extra effort are you expending in that case? Is it easier to mine with 7 retrievers (just a guess not sure the actual threshold) and dock them all to unload or mine with 6 Hulks and constantly unload their ore into a can and haul with a 7th pilot? What about about if you add Tech II strips with crystals and have to change them back and forth a lot? Is the increased yield worth all the extra effort?

Gee thanks for making my Mack unplayable since I now have spend 30 days training Exhumers to lvl 5 for it to be playable again.

You guys act like training is not a big deal. I am flat broke and can't even mine now unless I go buy a procurer and fit it.